Acyutananda: It's shallow. [break] ...that the Vaisnavas say that the gold ring is smaller in quantity than the gold mine, but the only way in this material world.... That is only a material example, because something can be separated from the general mass because there are many different elements. You can tell the difference between a gold ring and a gold mine because there is air and space. But there is ekam brahma dvitiyam nasti, there is only Brahman, so you cannot say that there is a big Brahman and a part-and-parcel Brahman. The words "part and parcel" you have only written into the srutis for your own...

Prabhupada: So that is not your rascal's imagination. It is spoken by the Lord Himself. Mamaivamsah. He is not rascal like you, that He will say something which is mistaken.

Acyutananda: No, that is only during His avatara He says that.

Prabhupada: That's all right. He says like that; we have to accept it. Bhagavad-gita as it is.

Acyutananda: In the lower stage.

Prabhupada: Lower stage not.... That is.... You are in the lower stage. You cannot understand. But what He says, that is right. Mamaivamsah, sanatana, "eternally amara." It is not that made amsa at the present time. Sanatana. From.... From the very beginning.

Acyutananda: Then it is contradictory.

Prabhupada: No contradictory. It is not contradictory. He says, mamaivamso jiva-bhutah [Bg. 15.7], that "These jivas, they are eternally My amsa." It is not that because now in the material world it has become fragmented.

Acyutananda: How can there be any truth outside the Lord?

Prabhupada: Huh?

Acyutananda: How can there be any truth separate from the Lord, like a gold ring separate from the mine?

Prabhupada: Yes, but whatever the Lord says, that is truth. Not your statement is truth.

Acyutananda: No, just like if I say...
Prabhupada: You cannot say.
Acyutananda: ...you should dress warmly. You should dress warmly now.
Prabhupada: No, no. You cannot say.
Acyutananda: And then I come in the summer, and you still are dressing warmly-it's for time and circumstance, only immediately.

Prabhupada: No. That is spiritual fragment, eternally existing. Nityo nityanam cetana... There are always plural number and singular number.

Acyutananda: How can there be any truth separate from the Lord? Eka brahma.
Prabhupada: No, it is not separate. You are thinking separate.
Acyutananda: No, a gold ring is separate from the gold mine. That is your...
Prabhupada: No, no, that is your material conception. But everything is...
Acyutananda: Yes, that is a material example. The example came from you Vaisnavas. We do not make...
Prabhupada: No.
Acyutananda: We go directly from the sruti, ekam brahma dvitiyam nasti.
Prabhupada: Then you don't accept Bhagavad-gita.
Acyutananda: There cannot be anything in between.
Prabhupada: Then you don't accept Bhagavad-gita.

Acyutananda: We also accept. During avatara these things may go on, but actually...

Yasodanandana: Ultimately everything will become one. The jivatma will become one with the Paramatma. The Advaitavadi...

Prabhupada: It is already one. That is Visistadvaitavada.
Acyutananda: Yes, but it appears differently.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Acyutananda: But actually there is no difference.
Prabhupada: No.
Acyutananda: So we are one with God.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Acyutananda: So we are one.

Prabhupada: Why one? You are one and different, bhedabheda, acintya-bhedabheda-tattva, simultaneously one and different. Just like this. This is one and different. The children have come from the body -- that is one -- but still, they are different. Even in the hogs and pigs the acintya-bhedabheda-tattva is there. [break] The word should be nabheda sanatana.

Acyutananda: [break] It is different only during the manifestation of prakrti, but actually it is not...

Prabhupada: Just like in Vrndavana. They are one, but still, there are trees, there are flowers, there are water, there are calves, there are cows, there are gopis, but they are all one. Ananda-cinmaya-rasa-pratibhavitabhih [Bs. 5.37]. All of them are ananda-cinmaya-rasa. Nirvisesavadis..., it is not nirvisesavada. Sa-visesa. What is this? [break] Just see, it is already "Hare Krsna," known.

Gopala Krsna: Foundation was laid in December '74, but no work has been done since then.
Prabhupada: So why not let us have this land? We can develop.
Tamala Krsna: Very nice land, Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Tamala Krsna: Right by the lake.

Acyutananda: It already has our name. If the Bhagavad-gita is in the Mahabharata -- that's itihasa -- how did it get the name Upanisad, Gitopanisad?

Prabhupada: Because it is spoken by Krsna. Itihasa also Vedic literature. Pancama-veda, Mahabharata, for understanding of the common man. Stri-sudra-dvija-bandhunam trayi na sruti-gocarah [SB 1.4.25]. Woman, sudra, and dvija-bandhu, they cannot understand directly the Vedas.

Acyutananda: But even Bhisma, when he was on the battlefield, he said, "I have given up my bheda-jna," so he became one.

Prabhupada: One you are already. Because you are foolish, you cannot understand. That is abheda. I am not different. Just like my finger is not different from me. If the finger thinks, "I am different from the body," that is ignorance.

Yasodanandana: Just as we say that ignorance consists of not understanding the difference between the jiva and the Paramatma, the Mayavadis say that ignorance means to understand the difference between jiva and Paramatma.

Prabhupada: So then they difference. They admit that there is difference, if they say like that, that "There is difference."

Yasodanandana: But they say that oneness, that is the real knowledge.

Prabhupada: No, no. That's all right. But why they say "different"?

Yasodanandana: They say to see that our vision of difference, that our vision of difference, that is ignorance. When we understand the jivatma to be different from God, from Bhagavan, that is ignorance.

Prabhupada: No. No.

Yasodanandana: That your vision of seeing God...

Prabhupada: Yes. So we admit that, that when we see that "I am separate from..." Then the same example: If the finger thinks that it is separate from the body, that is ignorance, because the finger is required by the body to serve the body. So if he thinks, "No, I'll not serve you because I am different," that is ignorance. That is ignorance. That is going on. These Mayavadis, they refuse to serve God. That is ignorance. If they are part and parcel of God or one with God, how you can refuse to serve? That is ignorant. Here the finger is my part and parcel of the body. It cannot refuse to serve. I say; immediately it comes. So if the finger thinks that "I am one. Why shall I serve the whole body?" that is ignorance. Cetana. Cetana means activity. So if I am one with God, then my activities should be simultaneously with God. That is oneness. I don't disagree. God says, "You do it." I disagree. God says, "You surrender unto Me," but I refuse. That is ignorance. If I am actually one with God, just I am asking, "You do this" -- you do immediately. But if you do not do it, that is ignorance. Gurur avajna. Then he becomes aparadhi. Similarly, oneness means no disagreement. That is oneness, cetana. Cetana means I can disagree or agree. Two things are there. That is cetana. So cetana, cetanas cetananam. So when God says that "You do it," you must do it. That is agreement. That is oneness. If you refuse, that is ignorance. How can you refuse? Suppose you.... Take the whole family, and the head of the families asks somebody to do something. If he refuses, then that is rebellious condition. In the state the citizen must agree with the government. Cetana. Cetana means he has got both the things. If he likes, he can agree; if he likes, he does not agree.

Vasughosa: So their big word is that you merge and you become that. So how...

Prabhupada: That is merging. They do not know what is merging. Merging means "I, so long I was disagreeing; now I agree to abide by Your..." That is merging. Just like several states they merge into one. So they agree to work unitedly. That is merging. Merging does not mean that you have got your discretion and that is finished. That is not merging. Then your cetana is lost. How it can be lost?

Mahamsa: What about the analogy that many rivers flow into the same sea and lose their individuality?

Prabhupada: Hm?

Mahamsa: Their example is that many rivers, they flow into one sea, and then they lose their individuality.

Prabhupada: Because they are short-sighted, blind, that there are many individual living entities within the river. But they are blind. They cannot see them. Because it is covered by water they see only the water is there. Because they are blind rascals, they cannot see. But if they go deep into the water they will see there are so many individuals, millions, and they are living in the same river.

Harikesa: But there's no difference between the individual living entity and the total...

Prabhupada: Yes, there is no difference. Still, that is.... That is acintya-bheda... That is individuality and no individuality. So long they are living there within the river, there is no individuality.

Acyutananda: That example is also a jugglery of words because the.... Let's say the Mississippi River is the quantity of water that's on the land. When it goes into the ocean you don't say that "Now the Mississippi River is in the ocean." Mississippi River is still individual, and the ocean is another thing.

Prabhupada: The Mississippi is not finished.

Mahamsa: And the water molecules...

Prabhupada: And not only that, the water is again taken away and it is thrown into the Mississippi. So these rascals who think that "We have now merged. We are now liberated," that is rascaldom. They will be taken away and thrown again. Aruhya krcchrena... No, this is fact. Aruhya krcchrena param padam tatah patanty adhah [SB 10.2.32]. They cannot stay. They will be taken away by the nature's law, converted into cloud and thrown away, again come, again come. They are thrown away. They cannot stay. And again they become water and come through. That is going on, coming and going. So their merging is not fact.

Yasodanandana: Vimukta-maninah.

Prabhupada: Yes, vimukta-maninah, yes.

Mahamsa: [break] ...om tad visnoh paramam padam. That claims Visnu as the Supreme, but where does it say that Visnu..., I mean Krsna, is the source of Visnu from the srutis?

Prabhupada: Sruti... Brahma said, isvarah paramah krsnah [Bs. 5.1].
Acyutananda: Brahma-samhita is sruti.
Prabhupada: Yes. Brahma spoke sruti, Vedas, so whatever he speaks is sruti. It is therefore called samhita. Samhita means Vedas, sruti. As soon as it is called samhita, that is Vedas.
Acyutananda: [break] ...comprises the examination for bhaktivedanta and bhakti-sastri?
Prabhupada: Hm?

Acyutananda: There was talk that they would be given examinations.

Prabhupada: Yes. Yes.

Acyutananda: What is the syllabus for...?

Prabhupada: Whatever books we have got, it should be studied. Bhakti-sastri means Nectar of Devotion, Bhagavad-gita, Nectar of Instruction, Beyond Death -- in this way we select some ten books. That is bhakti-sastri.

Acyutananda: So when will that...

Prabhupada: Then we come to Bhagavata, then we come to Caitanya-caritamrta, in this way. So from next year, unless one passes bhakti-sastri, he cannot be second initiated. First initiation is open for everyone. "Come on. Chant Hare Krsna." That will purify him. Then let him understand what is bhakti.

Yasodanandana: This is very good, because then those that will become second..., those that will have second initiation will have to know the scriptures, will have to know your books.
Prabhupada: Yes, that is.... Now there is...
Mahamsa: And unless they know your books, they will never be fixed-up devotees.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Acyutananda: Many times people give second initiation because they need a pujari in the temple.
Prabhupada: No.
Acyutananda: So they give.

Mahamsa: [break] ...different Puranas have different Gitas, Prabhupada? So some person said that there is a Ganesa-gita. Similarly, there are different demigods. They speak their gita. And they also say...

Acyutananda: Universal form.

Mahamsa: They show the universal form or they say that they are param brahma param dhama [Bg. 10.12]. They say the same things in their gitas.

Prabhupada: That's all right. Let them do that. We take Bhagavad-gita. That's all. Sankaracarya also -- bhagavad-gita kincid adhita. If Bhagavad-gita is understood a little only, he becomes liberated.

Acyutananda: Then why should it be called the Bhagavad-gita and not the Krsna-gita. Krsna is referred to as Bhagavan.

Prabhupada: Huh? Bhagavad-gita, not Bhagavata-gita.

Acyutananda: No, Bhagavata, because He is.... The others are not Bhagavata.

Prabhupada: Yes. Krsnas tu bhagavan svayam [SB 1.3.28]. Krsnas tu bhagavan svayam. Bhagavan, that I explained so many times. Bhagavan everyone, little possessing opulence.

Acyutananda: But these other Gitas are named after the demigod.

Prabhupada: That's all right. He can be called bhagavan. He is not ordinary man. He can be called. But the real Bhaga.... Krsnas tu bhagavan svayam. That is the.... The real Bhagavan is here, but these demigods, they have got little opulences, not equal to Krsna. Therefore they are sometimes called Bhagavan.

Acyutananda: But their Gitas are not called Bhagavad-gita; they are called by their...

Mahamsa: But do they have the potency to show the universal form?

Prabhupada: Who?

Mahamsa: These demigods?

Prabhupada: Yes. What is that universal form? It is nothing. Any powerful living being can do that.

Yasodanandana: In the other Vaisnava-sampradayas, such as the Madhva-sampradaya and the Ramanuja-sampradaya, they do not understand that Krsna has His own planet, Goloka Vrndavana. They think that there is only Vaikuntha and nothing else.

Prabhupada: Their knowledge is imperfect. In the Brahma-samhita it is said, goloka-namni nija-dhamni tale ca tasya [Bs. 5.43].

Yasodanandana: That is why when Caitanya Mahaprabhu came back to Puri, He said, "I have met many Ramanujas, many Madhvas, many Buddhists, but I like Ramananda Raya very much because he has this knowledge of Radha-Krsna."

Acyutananda: In South India there are very few Radha-Krsna devotees. And what they have is from some Puranas, the marriage of Radha and Krsna. They perform Radha-Krsna kalyana, marriage.

Tamala Krsna: Is that bona fide, Prabhupada?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Acyutananda: In the Brahma-vaivarta... So a court case appeared. One man had some property in the name of Radha-Krsna Deities. So the court said, "You only have the quota for one family." So he argued that Radha-Krsna are not married; They are two separate families, so They should have double quota of land. So he won the case on that. But if somebody came from the south, he said, "No, They can be married also," he would have lost.

Tamala Krsna: I think, Prabhupada, there is..., you wrote...
Acyutananda: Brahma-vaivarta Purana.
Tamala Krsna: ...there's a ceremony where Radha and Krsna are, I think, married.
Acyutananda: Brahma-vaivarta Purana I heard, that They were married by Brahma in secret.
Prabhupada: [break] ...lands are being distributed.
Acyutananda: To the bhangis.
Tamala Krsna: Distributed?
Prabhupada: These lands are being distributed?
Indian man: Distributed to the poor people. All these lands.
Tamala Krsna: Legally they are being distributed?
Indian man: Yes, legally, by government.
Prabhupada: [break] ...there any question last night? No.

Acyutananda: No, nobody put last night. [break] ...majority is English-speaking audience, then questions and answers flow smoothly.

Tamala Krsna: [break] ...a latrine arranged yesterday, but...

Acyutananda: [break] ...continuing for very long. What is the problem there?

Indian man: [break] ...is there are social act which this Hare Krsna movement has taken?

Prabhupada: What is the best social activity? Our is the best...
Indian man: Serving the poor and the natives...
Prabhupada: Everyone is poor. Who is rich? First of all find out. Who is rich?
Indian man: Rich in the sense, luxurious living...
Prabhupada: He is not living very luxuriously, that he has no disease, he does not become old. Does not become?
Indian man: No.
Prabhupada: Then? Then where is richness?
Indian man: Somebody questioned me yesterday.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Indian man: "There are so many things. Doing any social activities?"

Prabhupada: These things are being done by so many other people, and we are doing something which is ultimate. The hospital gives some medicine when there is some disease, but that does not mean there will be no disease. Can they guarantee that "I give you this medicine -- no more disease." We are giving that medicine, that no more disease. That is the best social work. Tyaktva deham punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9]. We are giving this medicine, that after leaving this body.... So far this body is concerned, somehow or other you pass on. And as soon as you give up this body -- tyaktva deham punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9] -- you'll have no more birth. And if you have no more birth, there will be no more death. And if you have no more birth, then there will be no more disease. This is our prescription. Tyaktva deham punar janma naiti mam eti [Bg. 4.9]. Not that he is finished. He goes back to home, back to Godhead. This is our program. So your question is answered or not? Huh? Your question is answered or not? Your question is answered or not?